Curse

X Cytherea X · Sep 18, 2009, 02:28 PM // 14:28

the Escape nerf was good enough to kill R/As. a nerfed pvp version of Death Blossom is completely unnecessary.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 18, 2009, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Not sure why Blossom got nerfed either instead of reverting Fox Fangs and Jagged Strike, not like I really mind sins not being in play, just saying.

God_Hand · Sep 18, 2009, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

You're right. After all, R/A's with Shattering Assault and Natural Stride are definitely on par with R/As with Escape. I mean, who wouldn't want to spec heavy 3 ways for a sub-par speed boost that doesn't really function well as a block?

So... Monks should stop bringing Guardian because it's only a 50% block chance?

R/A's will still exist. They'll just have a bit less survivability through Nat Stride, and a bit more power through Shattering Assault (Unblockable and Removes Enchants, two things Death Blossom never did).

I can see the concept behind all of ANet's changes, but for the most part, they either nerfed skills way too much (Mantra, Escape, Death Blossom), or not nearly enough (Immolate, Prism, Patient). Either way, the same builds are either rolling smoothly along (E/Me, E/D, E-Prism), or will just find alternatives to keep the build feasible (Nat + Shattering, Pious Concentration)

Oh, and seriously ANet, nerf Defy Pain so people quit bringing it. I'm sick of it.

Bobby2 · Sep 18, 2009, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

R/A's will still exist. They'll just have a bit less survivability through Nat Stride, and a bit more power through Shattering Assault (Unblockable and Removes Enchants, two things Death Blossom never did).

I don't think the difference between 75% and 50% block should be underestimated, not to mention 2/3 and 1/2 uptime. This so-called 'new R/A' won't rise in favour anytime soon; the entire build was feasible before any of this (read: dagger buffs) happened, albeit to a slightly weaker degree, Jagged having no activation time and substituting Fox Fangs for Wild Strike - and was never seen despite the strength people are now attributing to it.

Oh, and 10 Expertise just isn't the same as 14.

Still Number One · Sep 18, 2009, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Animate

The general pattern of how Arena.net handles problems:

-Problem #1: GvG at VoD, Arena.net's Solution: We remove VoD.
-Problem #2: Smiter's Boon, Arena.net's Solution: We remove Smiter's Boon.
-Problem #3: TA and HB, Arena.net's Solution: We remove TA and HB.
-Problem #4: Mantra of Resolve, Arena.net's Solution: We remove Mantra of Resolve.
-Problem #5: GW sucks, Arena.net's Solution: We remove ou... err never mind.

#1: VoD was a problem that needed to be addressed. The current tiebreaker is better than VoD at the state it was in. It wasn't the ideal fix and it is still crappy and needs to be changed. However it was changed the way it was because it was the only thing they could feasibly do at the time considering there was no one available to work on GW 1 and do programming changes that would have needed to be done in order to have a solid tie breaker.

#2: Smiter's Boon was a flawed concept that had no place in the game. The skill needed to be deleted because adding healing power to smiters is the most imbalanced concept in the game. Since it is easier to just nerf the skill to a point of no use rather than deleting it, it received a nerf. You and others who think it could be balanced need to realize that its mechanic can not be. The skill would have had to be reworked completely, and have 0 resemblance to what it was. Rather than wasting time trying to change the skill into a new concept that could also possibly be over powered, they nuked it. It was a good decision. It is fine the way it is.

#3: TA really didn't need to be removed, HB is debatable. Really the whole concept of HB is flawed and would need to be changed. So deleting HB and replacing it with Sealed Deck is a good solution. Both formats could not be balanced with purely skill changes however, and anet doesn't have the time to properly fix them both. I feel a little bad for the people who enjoyed those formats, but it is what it is.

#4: MoR was a stupid mechanic that was overpowered. It made skills that were balanced out by their casting times infinitely more powerful. It is still usable as well. You just can't be brainless with it. Put it up, cast Signet of Humility and VoR and then its down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

A similar thread exists here, dunno which one is gonna get closed..

That thread is in Riverside, this is in Gladiator's Arena. This thread is strictly about the changes to PvP and we don't have to worry about PvEr's whining about farming or the lack of buffs. Neither will nor should get closed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

nerf to patient spirit i just don't get. but then again that's one that KMD was complaining about and anet's always more than willing to bow to people with gold on their backs.

Patient is way too good of a non-elite heal. 1 second recharge increase doesn't change that. It heals for too much and still needs to be toned down a bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

R/A's will still exist. They'll just have a bit less survivability through Nat Stride, and a bit more power through Shattering Assault (Unblockable and Removes Enchants, two things Death Blossom never did).

The problem with R/A's wasn't their damage. It was their survivability. A 33% movement speed, 75% block with a 4 second downtime, a second 75% block stance to save yourself if escape was taken off too early (right when it was put on), infinite energy unless you take something like Quicksand or spirit shackles, and the extra armor to elemental damage is what made the build OP.

Nat Stride will not keep them alive against anyone with half a brain and they no longer are invincible on splits since every flagger has freezing gust (which will not only snare them but takes off nat stride). Not to mention their defense is also gone if their monks try protting them for spikes. The fact that R/A's can now be killed tones down the build enough. As much as everyone hates it, it shouldn't be killed, it just shouldn't be nearly as powerful as it was. This nerf should put it on the level it should be. Viable in niche roles, but overall worse than warriors.

Thamior Shamus · Sep 18, 2009, 07:09 PM // 19:09

I am both happy and sad about this update. OP stuff got nerfed or toned down, always a plus

and now hopefully they will balance skills well in the upcoming months. But i'm sad cuz a MB ele won't fight me 1v1 any more while i'm on ranger... QQ.

Master Ketsu · Sep 18, 2009, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Just tested a few R/A builds.

It seems assault enchants is really the only one still viable.

The Escape nerf was actually pretty irrelevant. I found myself getting around that pretty easy with some split into WS and natural stride, and just generally not being bad.

The blossom nerf on the other hand...ouch. That is the real nerf. The DPS is toned down considerably. This means AE is the way to go now since that bar has to occasionally auto attack for energy anyways.

pah01 · Sep 18, 2009, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Just tested a few R/A builds.

It seems assault enchants is really the only one still viable.

The Escape nerf was actually pretty irrelevant. I found myself getting around that pretty easy with some split into WS and natural stride, and just generally not being bad.

The blossom nerf on the other hand...ouch. That is the real nerf. The DPS is toned down considerably. This means AE is the way to go now since that bar has to occasionally auto attack for energy anyways.

Escape and death blossom were good nerfs. R/A are still strong however not quite as bad.

Now if they could stop thinking that blood spike should be a viable build, and then nerf the rest of the dagger attacks on that bar that would be great as well.

Joe

lutz · Sep 18, 2009, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

So... Monks should stop bringing Guardian because it's only a 50% block chance?

R/A's will still exist. They'll just have a bit less survivability through Nat Stride, and a bit more power through Shattering Assault (Unblockable and Removes Enchants, two things Death Blossom never did).

I can see the concept behind all of ANet's changes, but for the most part, they either nerfed skills way too much (Mantra, Escape, Death Blossom), or not nearly enough (Immolate, Prism, Patient). Either way, the same builds are either rolling smoothly along (E/Me, E/D, E-Prism), or will just find alternatives to keep the build feasible (Nat + Shattering, Pious Concentration)

Oh, and seriously ANet, nerf Defy Pain so people quit bringing it. I'm sick of it.

If Guardian ended whenever you got a hex or enchantment on you, had a 12 second recharge and required you to spec into an attribute you have no other use for a skill in, I would probably stop bringing it, yes.

X Cytherea X · Sep 18, 2009, 08:29 PM // 20:29

death blossom, rip enchantment and mantra of resolve were overnerfed.

DB -> 3r
rip -> 12r
MoR -> 10sec

would be more fair.

Kaon · Sep 18, 2009, 10:14 PM // 22:14

For arenanet standards this was an exceptionally good update. Problems were adressed and no new problems have been created. Of course I did not expect Anet to adress the real issue of the game, it's complete imbalance of offense versus defense and the ridiculous powercreep, but it has to be said that's still the biggest problem the game has had for 3 years now.

You didn't buff gale to 5 energy, how long do I have to wait?

Burton2000 · Sep 18, 2009, 10:46 PM // 22:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

death blossom, rip enchantment and mantra of resolve were overnerfed.

DB -> 3r
rip -> 12r
MoR -> 10sec

would be more fair.

Of those 3 skills only MoR was overnerfed and to be fair does anyone really care about mantra of resolve? Good riddance I say.

Rip even at a 12 recharge is still many times stronger than any other alternatives I mean Corrupt enchant is a skill that does the same thing as rip but its ELITE.

For death blossom I still think they should of nerfed Jagged+Fox Fangs but again 6 recharge is still very much playable, any shorter and you get back into the realms of the skill spamming that we just had.

X Cytherea X · Sep 18, 2009, 11:04 PM // 23:04

it is good to be able to guarantee you can get off some key skills once in awhile. they can still be KD'd anyway.

all enchantment removal should be scaled with the ease of applying enchantments. 15r is too long compared to the things you would want to remove.

DB has always been fine at 2r. decent but not insane damage. and predictable if you're spamming. it's those dumbass R/As that caused complaints. Escape nerf took care of that. DB did not have to be touched.

Sankt Hallvard · Sep 19, 2009, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

it is good to be able to guarantee you can get off some key skills once in awhile. they can still be KD'd anyway.

all enchantment removal should be scaled with the ease of applying enchantments. 15r is too long compared to the things you would want to remove.

DB has always been fine at 2r. decent but not insane damage. and predictable if you're spamming. it's those dumbass R/As that caused complaints. Escape nerf took care of that. DB did not have to be touched.

...

I managed to avoid replying to your first post, let me tell you it took a bit of self-constraint. I've run out, though.

Did you read the post prior to your last one? The guy just told you why those skills were nerfed but you are stuck on repeat. I don't mean to act like Kanye West here, and I'm really happy that you love sins Cytherea, but Burton had one of the best replies of all time...

Relying on KDs as you propose to deal with an uninterruptable domination spammer is just ridiculous. The mesmer hexes have long casting times for a reason, they have a potential huge impact on the outcome of games. By making things uninterruptable you remove a big and interesting aspect of gameplay. I don't even think they nerfed mantra hard enough, the fact that there are now better alternatives does not change that fact. Pious concentration might not be widely used but it's just waiting to be paired up with some other abusive OP skill. Sometimes it might be ok to have a 100% chance of your skill going through, but then it should come with a steep price IMO. It's really not that hard to fake casts or hide behind an obstacle if you are relying on that one skill to go through anyway. I'm not saying interrupts are not very powerful, but then maybe it's time for them to get toned down also.

Rip is if anything not hit hard enough either. There's a bunch of enchantments that are fire and forget and some that can only be stopped with enchantment removal. But still I have this idea that monk prots should be more viable. I also want eles to be able to bring an attunement without having to ALWAYS add a cover enchant. Maybe a future update could rework some skills to remove certain enchants more easily than others, alter the recharge depending whether a derv enchant or monk enchant was removed etc. I dunno tbh I just find it really cheesy to see a monk put up a good timed guardian and then instantly rip it to add insult to injury.

Then we have death blossom. Well yeah as many have already said it would be better with a revert of jagged/fox. Jagged/fox will likely still see more play than they deserve. DB nerf is good in either case though. Personally I think sin is the worst class and I view all of them with suspicion. They were designed to be "spikey", quick and powerful attacks but fragile. They should not then have the ability to pump steady DPS(blossom) and remain invulnerable to harm. (escape, l.reflex, flashing blades, crit defenses) Also I don't admire their playstyle. Compare to a warrior, he needs to build adrenaline and use an adaptive playstyle, knowing when to KD, apply dw, frenzy/cancel etc. The sin just needs a target and gently tap his forehead on the keyboard moving from left to right.

Master Ketsu · Sep 19, 2009, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Wrong. Escape nerf actually did very little. There were already a few good teams running with AE instead before the update. DB is what really hurts R/A.

Death blossom is still one of the best dual attacks.

Greedy Gus · Sep 19, 2009, 06:34 AM // 06:34

I think the most striking thing about this update is how conservative the nerfs are. Looks like everything is in the right direction, and maybe modest recharge increases to problem skills may pass for subtlety, but it seems the balancer is not confident enough in actually rebalancing skills.

Reverend Dr · Sep 19, 2009, 06:40 AM // 06:40

I wish that they had taken that conservative attitude when doing all of the buffs.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 19, 2009, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

I wish that they had taken that conservative attitude when doing all of the buffs.

Seriously :/

X Cytherea X · Sep 19, 2009, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

I'm not saying interrupts are not very powerful, but then maybe it's time for them to get toned down also.

yes, if they nerf uninterruptability, they should also nerf interrupts.

Quote:

I dunno tbh I just find it really cheesy to see a monk put up a good timed guardian and then instantly rip it to add insult to injury.

i love it when that happens. it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.

Quote:

The sin just needs a target and gently tap his forehead on the keyboard moving from left to right.

realistically, difficulty of execution does not matter as long as it's mathematically balanced.

Quote:

Wrong. Escape nerf actually did very little. There were already a few good teams running with AE instead before the update. DB is what really hurts R/A.

killing them is easy now, lol.

Quote:

Death blossom is still one of the best dual attacks.

of all time. OF ALL TIME!

Quote:

I think the most striking thing about this update is how conservative the nerfs are. Looks like everything is in the right direction, and maybe modest recharge increases to problem skills may pass for subtlety, but it seems the balancer is not confident enough in actually rebalancing skills.

they want the skills to remain viable, as they should. i still think they went overboard in the 3 cases i mentioned.

Reverend Dr · Sep 19, 2009, 12:55 PM // 12:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

realistically, difficulty of execution does not matter as long as it's mathematically balanced.

What the hell does this mean?

Also, quoting like that is obnoxious.